Pam McNally, the Vice President of Marketplace for the National Kitchen & Bath Association (NKBA), dives into the latest market and design trends that NKBA is following — and that retailers need to know about.

Rob Stott: All right. We are back on the Independent Thinking podcast, and I’m really excited. Today is a podcast we’ve had on the calendar for a couple of weeks now. And I’m excited to finally dive in with you, Miss Pam McNally of the NKBA, VP of Marketplace for NKBA, the National Kitchen and Bath Association. And I know you guys are not too far removed from your own show. We just had our prime time, as we’re sitting here recording last week. Are you recovered yet from KBIS and everything you guys went through?

Pam McNally: We’re definitely recovered, looking forward to the 222 in person, let me tell you. Virtual, as you well know, didn’t work out too well.

Rob Stott: Every show has their challenges, but no.

Pam McNally: It was a big one, though.

Rob Stott: We’re still a week out, and I’m trying to figure out when I’ll be fully recovered from even virtual show. I look forward to getting back at person. These virtual shows, I swear, they take more out of you than being in person.

Pam McNally: It was definitely a challenge for the team. We’ve never done this. I think a lot of people never have really taken on a virtual event. So yes, it was a bit of a challenge. But I have to say we did have that major hiccup, but we recovered. And a lot of the content ended up being on our site. And to be honest, people went there, and the whole thing went smoothly after that.

Rob Stott: Yeah, we attended, and you get to still get those conversations. It’s not the same, any virtual show, same with our prime time. It’s hard to have those conversations in a chat. Or even like this, in a virtual video setting. But cannot wait to get back in person and just make those connections. And it is what it is.

Pam McNally: You and me both, let me tell you.

Rob Stott: So before we dive in, we got a lot of great content to dive into today. But before that, just tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and your role at NKBA.

Pam McNally: You’re going to regret this. All right. But I joined NKBA about eight months ago from Interior Design, which is owned by SANDOW. And at Interior Design, I headed up strategy, digital initiatives, and new programs. So my background is mostly digital. I started out at print, but quickly switched to digital. Because if anybody who knows me knows, I like things that move fast and be flexible.

So I’ve known the NKBA for years because they were one of my biggest clients. And I’ve long admired Bill and Suzie for what they’ve done at the NKBA. So right before the pandemic, we decided maybe it’d be a good idea for me to join them. Because they really wanted to push some of their digital. They wanted to expand into digital.

So about three months later at the peak of the pandemic I joined. I haven’t met most of the people at all in person. And I head up marketing and digital initiatives, and I work closely with sales on creating those big partner programs, which, again, are another area where we want to expand. Great group of people. Really love what I do and who I work with.

So that’s in a nutshell.

Rob Stott: That’s awesome. And think of my background, just being able to cover this organization. A lot of great work. Obviously the events is a big part of it, but the research I think is really where it gets interesting. And I know you guys have the marketplace reports and design trend reports. A lot of different initiatives coming out of NKBA that set the stage for the quarters to come, the years to come, and what designers and retailers as well that have maybe some design offerings in their portfolio to keep an eye on.

So I know we’re going to single in on two today with the market research and the design reports. Talk about the market report, and a little bit about it. How it’s conducted, and the significance of it for NKBA.

Pam McNally: It’s so funny because when I first started, I have never been in an organization there’s so many acronyms, accreditations, and then you have all these research reports. And I’m like, “What? KBMI, KBMO. What the heck?” And I’m like, “Oh gosh.” But the team was really patient. So I think I’ve got about 50% of it down right now. So you’re going to have to forgive me if I fumble a tad. That’s why I’m hoping nobody’s listening from the NKBA.

I’ll let you in to a secret. My favorite part of the whole thing is research because it’s an amazing team, and they’re so thorough. I’m really in awe of what they do. And I have to say that awe is spread throughout became the K&B industry because these reports that we do, our regular reports that we do for the K&B industry, and exact slope for them to see what’s coming ahead. So we do something called kitchen, bath market outlook, KBMO, which we do in partnership with John Burns Real Estate Consulting, to really look at the overall health of the K&B industry.

We do about, I’d say, two or three of those updates. I think it’s beginning of the year, June, and September. We look at these very, very secondary research areas, like the US Census, National Association of Retailers, Housing Starts. And then we combine it with our own proprietary research, which is about nearly 5,000 consumers. So you build a report that gives insight into market growth, K&B consumer spending, to trends, and then key kitchen and bath features that, again, that the K&B execs look forward to to see what’s happening.

Rob Stott: Gotcha. So obviously a lot of information and data points that can be pulled out of that. Is there a way to tell what is the overall health right now? We’re coming off of a crazy year.

Pam McNally: Right.

Rob Stott: So how do you boil it down to identify where the industry is right now?

Pam McNally: So it’s interesting. The health of the K&B segment is, I would say, very robust, and that’s probably putting it even mildly. We don’t see that growth slowing down in 221. Demand just continues to grow. I think you hear about it. You see it. Housing and home improvements are leading us out of the recession. I hate to call it a recession because I personally think it was a depression. I can’t imagine such a drop. It hasn’t happened in, God, decades.

So you looked at it. Total residential K&B spend is projected to grow nearly 70% this year. To about 160 billion from 136 billion in 220. I’d say that’s a pretty healthy growth, considering if you look at hospitality, leisure, and some other segments of the economy that are just struggling to stay afloat. So I feel like last year definitely DIY was driving most of that because people didn’t want anybody in their homes. I think as we move out of the pandemic and back to nations, you’re seeing larger remodels, people allowing people into their homes. And the two areas that they’re really looking at are kitchen and bath.

Rob Stott: Yeah. And I’ll speak from personal experience. We have a local designer look in at our kitchen, to do a kitchen redesign. So I’m a case study right now-

Pam McNally: There you go.

Rob Stott: … for this space.

Pam McNally: We’re going to have to send our photographer over to you then.

Rob Stott: So I know a lot of it, that growth, has to do, and attending NKBA and attending Kbis and listening to Bill talk, there’s a massive opportunity it seems like, between low interest rates. And then I know consumers, the statistic was crazy as to how much the average home equity is right now. It’s that the stuff. And then you mentioned people sitting at home. Is that really what’s driving this boom right now?

Pam McNally: Yeah. So there are a couple of things happening. We have kitchen and bath new construction, which is driving a lot of that spend, which is about 22%. That’s driving about 22% of the increase in the spending. And then we’ve got the remodels, which is accounting for about 10%.

Rob Stott: Right.

Pam McNally: So most of that growth is really in the high-end, mid- to high-end projects, because most of the low-end were DIY. DIY was being done at 220, and there’s this pent-up demand for this mid- to high-end, to have people come in and really renovate their homes. It really is being funded by home sales, or refinance. The rates are so low, there’s never been a better time to sell or to refi. We’re seeing those rates creep up, but research predicts that we’re going to continue to demand for housing. And then also shrinking supply.

So the good news is that, like I said, people are turning to large remodels. And the shift to larger sized projects is a reversal from what happened last year, wherein our members are increasingly finding consumers, are coming back to these full scale remodels to accommodate, I think we all know what’s happening, the changing needs of home life. And I also think the staycations, I’m sure you’ve heard. For the last year, everybody’s been home.

Rob Stott: Yeah.

Pam McNally: So help redirect these funds to home improvements. And it’s not just indoor. It’s also outdoor. Think outdoor kitchen, showers. I think what you’re seeing is a 50% increase in projects for residential outdoor living areas. About 60% are updating what they have, and 40% are looking to add new. And a lot of this is being driven by outdoor kitchens. If you look at me, for example, I was never home.

I was traveling two to three weeks out of the month. I haven’t been on a trip in nearly a year, and in spending time in spaces in my home, inside and out, that I’ve never really noticed before. I have to be honest, I was like, “Okay, I’m home. I’m going to put my bag away, see my kids, my dogs, and I’m out again.” But now I notice, and I understand completely, like you, why people want to redo things. It’s not right. If I’m going to spend 24/7 in my home, I need to redo things.

Rob Stott: Right. You want to enjoy being there. It’s just what it boils down to.

Pam McNally: Yep.

Rob Stott: Yeah. You mentioned that it’s trending towards those larger scale projects right now. And I know that we had talked previously about the supply and demand issue that’s facing this industry. I know on the retail side, we’re seeing just the products, especially in appliances, the backup, back orders, and things like that. Materials, I know as well as, is a big issue. So as we see more larger projects, what impact is that having on those projects with the supply chain?

Pam McNally: So here’s the thing. The pipelines are full, and everyone is extremely busy. And I got to say, there’s two big challenges that are facing designers, specifiers, remodelers. And one is supply chain lag and disruption, and also finding workers. Skilled labor is really difficult these days to find. It’s shocking, considering that we look at the unemployment rate, and so many people out of a job. But we’re talking skilled labor.

So also the rising prices of raw materials. You see what’s going on with lumber, and that impacts everything. You think about it. What our research shows is that cabinets anchor a remodel of the kitchen. People look at their cabinets, it’s the biggest thing they can see outside of appliances, and say, “I want to remodel.” So that’s the first thing they do. And then that everything cascades after that.

So now you’re looking at cabinet supply. Getting a cabinet into your remodel used to take weeks. Now it takes months, and that’s probably being generous. I was listening to our NKBA Live segment the other day, BNB, which Bill hosts. Bill Darcy, our CEO. And one of the designers was saying that they have ordered appliances in July, and they still don’t have them, don’t expect it until March. The end of March. And that’s this year. So that’s crazy.

So I think what’s happening is that it’s good and bad. Bad because the designer’s frustrated. They can’t get what they need. And I think the advice that I’m hearing from them is that you’ve got to be honest and upfront. You’ve got to be honest and upfront with your customers, and let them know. And actually probably overestimate the time, for not only getting products, but also the costs. Because the rising, it’s a continuous cycle.

And I have to say with the world where everyone expects everything in a day, thanks to Amazon. Thank you, Amazon.

Rob Stott: Yeah, right.

Pam McNally: So there’s a little bit of frustration, but I think what I’m hearing from designers that, yes, there’s frustration, but I think people are much more accepting because the world has slowed down.

Rob Stott: Right. You get that we’re still coming out of a pandemic. And yeah, you can order your groceries and small items like that online, but these are bigger projects. The industries have slowed down. The world has slowed down. So it’s to be expected.

Pam McNally: Think about it. No one’s going anywhere. Sure. You’re frustrated. But at the end of the day, I think everyone’s slowed down, been a little more patient. And I think that it’s something that our designers and our remodelers are seeing. So yes, there’s frustration. But I think if we were in a situation like this two years ago, and there were supply chain lag, I think it would have been a very different situation in terms of the customer. Because I would have been home. I only have one day I’m home. I got to have my stuff here at that day. And if I don’t, my window closes. So I think you’re seeing a lot of patients on the part of the consumer that’s helping.

Rob Stott: Certainly. And what’s the expectation, because you mentioned those lumber issues and crazy? Obviously it affects the design side. And building cabinets. But also we’re seeing it on the furniture side as well. You need that same lumber to build couches and tables and things like that. So we’ve heard what we expect on the furniture side. What’s the expectation as to when it gets back to any normality with what we typically expect with the supply chain?

Pam McNally: Yeah. I don’t think I can really answer that. We don’t really have any research that indicates that, although there’s got to be an end in sight. I think we all assume. I think that if you look at what experts are saying, that the return to, well, I hate to say normalcy because it’s never going to be normal, people are looking at two, three years. They’re looking at two, three years for the jobs to recover, for industry to recover in certain areas, and maybe even five years.

So will supply chain be three, five years out? Probably not. But in my point of view only, my personal point of view, I think you’re going to see this continued through 221, and start to see it ease up maybe at the end of 221, because of the demand.

Rob Stott: Gotcha.

Pam McNally: There’s only so much demand, limited supply. And look what’s going on in Europe. Because Europe is going backwards and closing down. So that’s, again, no real projection, but just me thinking, “Okay, maybe I know.”

Rob Stott: Maybe you can answer this. The designers and builders out there that are for our retailers, our audience, they hear about the supply chain issues. What is the the root causes? Obviously demand is a big part of it. When there is more demand, supply is going to go down. But what are those challenges that they’re having keeping up with? Are there other external factors that they’re facing?

Pam McNally: Think about it. Because for how long were we closed down? You couldn’t even manufacturer. Even personally, some of the items that we all expect to go and get at a store, we couldn’t get. Think of paper products. Because a lot of those factories, whether here in the States or overseas, were closed down. So then nothing was being manufactured. So then there’s obviously a backlog. And then there’s this spike in demand, and then before you know it, you’re trying to keep up. And then look at what’s going on in Europe right now. You’re seeing factories closed down again. Here, we haven’t seen that so much. We’ve come back and up and running, but you never know. So I feel like it’s been this push/pull situation that I don’t know if we’re going to get out of until there’s either herd immunity, or everyone’s vaccinated and back to work.

Rob Stott: Right. Right. I want to switch gears a little bit. We talked about all the trends, and where we see things going, almost the business. I want to get into the fun side, the design stuff, the look and feel stuff. Because I know you also do a design trends report. Let’s set that one up a little bit, and talk about how you guys go about it, what goes into it, and what you pull out of it.

Pam McNally: That’s something that we do. And it comes out once a year, and it looks ahead three years, which I love. Because I’m always looking ahead. In my past life, I looked ahead for digital, which is fun. And I love futurism. So we look ahead about three years to the design trends in kitchen and bath, and what we saw in our last one, which we just did, is we see some big shifts. Big shifts in the way the world is living, working, all of these different things that are impacting kitchen and bath design of the home. And all of this is thanks to the pandemic.

So I think what COVID had has done is really up the ante for the home, particularly in high traffic spaces, like kitchen and bath. So consumers are looking for easy to clean surfaces, flex spaces to accommodate work/learn from home, more outdoor living spaces like we just talked about, and increased storage solutions.

So let’s look at the kitchen, for example. If you look at the kitchen, what we’re looking at is larger kitchens. Why? Because there probably isn’t going to be a return to pre-pandemic levels of dining outside the home for awhile. I think most people are now into cooking. Being at home doesn’t mean there isn’t going to be some dining, but I feel like it’s never going to go back. I shouldn’t say never, but not going to go back. So we’re looking at open, L-shaped layouts with large islands, bigger kitchens, minimalistic styles, and using mostly natural organic materials.

You’re also seeing a move, as I said, to larger kitchen. It’s almost like we’re taking nesting to the extreme. And like anywhere you go today, even if you went to a Starbucks, which some people are still doing, there’s never enough areas to charge or plug in. And I would love for it to come, at one point, we don’t have to have plugs. So adding more to the kitchen, and even the bath. Adding stations, charging stations, more plugs, especially in the kitchen where it’s where you do everything now. You cook, you work, and you learn.

Rob Stott: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s funny. You’re speaking all the types of language that we’re going through right now in our own remodel, is adding more places to sit, more places to do things. And I know one of the things I hear, you want a home that has that lasting design. The word slipped in my mind, but it has the design elements that are forever. They’re not going to get outdated very quickly. So I know that’s something that we’re talking a lot about as well over here.

And it’s just something that, you said it a little bit ago, but you’re spending so much more time here. And we see that, too, on the product side with furniture, couches that you’ve been sitting in for the past year that are getting lumpy and uncomfortable, down to the kitchen tables. And you’re spending more time at your kitchen table, not just eating, but working and hanging out and just living more at your kitchen table than you ever have before. And into the kitchen itself, and the appliances that you’re cooking on more often. And they have upgrade cycles anyway that were in the seven to 10 year range because of just standard use.

Well, that was just maybe breakfast and dinner. Now it was breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Pam McNally: Right.

Rob Stott: So they’re breaking down a little more easily. So it just a lot of that turnover, if you will, in those products. And interesting to see a carry over into how the design elements are impacted.

Pam McNally: So in your own remodel, how important was storage to you?

Rob Stott: Oh, we were adding cabinets around a corner of our kitchen where there was not cabinets before.

Pam McNally: Right. So one of the things that we found is that consumers want larger pantry storage areas. Because no one wants to caught without the extra paper product again.

Rob Stott: Right.

Pam McNally: People want to go to the store less, less contact, less exposure. So having more storage for food is essential. And storage, to not only that, but hide clutter, small appliances. So that’s all part of that came out as pandemic. And then also coming out, as things that are easily cleaned. You think about all of these surfaces, materials that are easily cleaned, indoor/outdoor materials. So no intricate details, slab front doors and simple or no crown molding. It’s amazing how this is driving design, and the way we design. And also consumers are trending towards lighter colored quartz countertops, all finishes and materials, but did you get a quartz counter?

Rob Stott: Yeah, we did. Absolutely.

Pam McNally: See, see? You’re on trend. All these finishes and materials that have to be tough enough to stand up to alcohol and other ammonia-based cleaning products, and anything anti-microbial is big. So again, all of this, it’s so amazing to me how this is driving the design elements of a home. You never thought it would.

Rob Stott: Do you see these being lasting design elements? You guys project three years out. So is this a trend that will last?

Pam McNally: Yeah. Even though our role is getting crazy, we were moving towards more simplistic, more efficient products in our home because we didn’t have a lot of time. And I still think that’s going to continue. You think about it, when you think about what people are buying now, they’re buying smart products. They’re buying things that are efficient and easy, and voice-activation is big because no one wants to have to touch anything.

So I feel like that’s going to continue because that’s easy. It’s simple. The one thing I think we are seeing that’s falling off, which has been big forever, is think about stainless steel appliances. And maybe it would be interesting to ask the retailers, but they’re losing momentum. Still big, but what we’re looking at is now we’re looking at refrigerators that have integrated door finishes or matching with the cabinets around them. I don’t know what you did, but they’re expected to be as popular because it’s easier to clean. No finger tips.

Rob Stott: You think about-

Pam McNally: Go ahead.

Rob Stott: You think about the different colors and things like that. I know, just as an example, where I think typically appliances were something that were retrofitted into a space. It’s all about design beforehand. And then you were like, “Oh, well, let’s get the appliances now.” Thinking about how as we’re going through it. We have the finishes. We’re looking at matte black. So that’s just a color.

Pam McNally: Yep. On trend.

Rob Stott: Not stainless. But also, then you think about the pulls and the handles and things like that, that will match. It’s matte black with brass accents on the door handles and things like that for the appliances and for the-

Pam McNally: Sounds beautiful.

Rob Stott: Thank you. So we’re looking to either. We haven’t decided yet. Maybe you can help on the cabinets being either matching the matte black or matching the brass accents of the appliances.

Pam McNally: I’m into matte black. And let me tell you something, you should look for anti-microbial. So there’s a couple things, a couple of products, that really came to the forefront during the pandemic and even post-pandemic, antimicrobial doorhandles or poles, which I think is amazing. Because people want to touch things and not worry about passing on germs.

And also bidets. Now, I don’t know if you were doing your bathroom, but you’re talking about a product that is big in Europe. People travel to Europe. They’re like, “Okay, but it’s not really big here. It hasn’t been big here, and it’s a novelty.” So now all of a sudden, what do you have? You have smart toilets that do everything, but wipe you. The lids close on their own. They flushed on their own. And now you also have the bidets, which are becoming almost a standard. Because why? I don’t want to touch anything.

Rob Stott: Right.

Pam McNally: And guess what? What was one of the things that we couldn’t get during the pandemic? No toilet paper, no toilet paper.

Rob Stott: Yeah.

Pam McNally: So again, driving a lot of this is that Nami saying, “Every house is going to have a bidet.” No, but you can see that it was one of the products that spiked and continues to spike.

Rob Stott: Right. And it’s interesting. Not to say bidets are very tech-savvy, tech-forward, or anything like that. But you talk about the flushing on their own, and lid shutting on their own. You can set microwaves on their own. Run dishwasher, run appliances with your voice. Technology has very quickly creeped its way into kitchen and bath design. Has this past year pressed fast-forward on that? Or were you guys already seeing that?

Pam McNally: We were seeing it, but I would say what’s happening is that it’s like VR, virtual reality, and augmented reality, used to be at the higher end. It used to be just a small part. But what you see is that, as Walmart started to train their associates with VR, it started to become almost a mass adoption. Middle America started to understand it and be like, okay. It’s the same thing happening now. This has pushed what was happening at the high-end, and tech-savvy or tech-forward has now pushed it down to almost mainstream.

So almost everybody has some sort of voice-activation or smart speaker or smart element in their home, no matter who they are, what they’re income level is. Voice activated lighting, touchless faucets, smart showers that turn on or can be programmed remotely. Heck, most people turn their car on remotely from two or three miles away. Why can’t I turn my shower on? So there’s all this expectation, not just at the high-end, but also creeping down.

So yes, I think it fast forwarded all of these trends, that probably would have taken another three to five years, have now been moved forward. And again, another reason why our supply chain, because the expectation wasn’t that these type of products were going to get into mass-adoption.

Rob Stott: Right, right. No, absolutely fair. I think on the consumer side, when they think about the refrigerator having a big smart screen on it and touch screen, everything is related back to smartphones these days. And knowing that I can buy a new smartphone, or I’m typically going to buy a new smartphone every year, is there any concern, or what’s the feeling, I guess, on the design side that, there is so much technology now? Does it seem like an opportunity or a challenge that consumers are to want to possibly feel like they have to upgrade more often their kitchens and bathrooms with this stuff?

Pam McNally: I don’t think so. I feel like most of your smart technologies run through an app. And so you would update maybe through the app. I feel like people are tired, tired of having to update. I don’t know about you, but every couple of weeks I have 20 apps I have to update. And it’s like, “All right. Enough already.”

And every time up to my phone, I always lose something. Or my contacts are wrong or something. So I think you’re going to see a transition from people not wanting to update. Sure. There’s always going to be these tech-savvy or tech-forward people that always want to be at the forefront. But I’m like, “I don’t need the top phone anymore. What I have is perfectly fine.”

I think you’re seeing this acceptance because people just don’t want to deal with it anymore. It’s also a sustainability thing. What happens? Sure. We’re going to have some of them being recycled and reuse, but it’s more like, “I don’t really need that extra feature.” So I feel I don’t think going to be the impetus to change kitchens and baths and other areas of the home. I think what you’ll see, though, is layering on new types of technology.

So instead of using your phone, you might have voice-activation in surrounding in your home. Is it integrated into your security system, your entertainment system, so that it’s not really just your phone? I could walk in and just start talking to my home. Hopefully it talks back because nobody else talks back to me. So I’m like, “I’m glad he talks back to me.”

Rob Stott: It’s quiet around these parts.

Pam McNally: Yeah, right?

Rob Stott: No. So one thing I want to close on, you mentioned it a couple of times throughout, and it sparked my interest. Because we have an outdoor segment of this membership, and it’s typically been focused around grills and some outdoor furniture. But I talked to me a little bit about the design trends you’re seeing in outdoor kitchens. Because we see them just watching channels, like HGTV and the luxurious looking kitchens that get designed for outside. But what is the way things are trending in outdoor kitchens and those living spaces?

Pam McNally: Right. Well, let me just say, I love HTV because everyone thinks they can redo their home in a day, from the ground up, by the way. Or I shouldn’t say maybe in a couple of hours.

I think what you’re seeing is you’re seeing people, like I said, there’s about 60% that are redoing what they have. And basically what that means is expanding living areas outside. Because we’re going to have people over. Even now, people don’t want people in their homes. So you want to expand your living areas, so more seating. Maybe you just had a mediocre grill. Now you want to add an outdoor fridge, an ice maker. You want a larger grill so that you’re doing built-ins outside. And then you want to have a covered area because, obviously, think about the Northeast, think about the areas where the weather impacts.

So I want to be outdoor. I want heating components outdoor. Would you ever thought, again, mainstream heating components? What’s the one product you couldn’t get anywhere during the winter was those heaters, those portable heaters. You couldn’t because everyone was outdoor. So I think what you’re seeing is the trend that had started probably two, three years ago, indoor/outdoor, maybe in the South, in California. And you saw a little bit up here in the Northeast, but I think you’re seeing the outdoor really come in, and the indoor really go out.

So kitchens that are replicate of what you have indoors, seating areas, entertainment areas, outdoor TVs, fire pits, which we all know are another big area, and then covered spaces.

Rob Stott: Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. And I’m just thinking about the Northeast, I’m in Philly. So not, too. It gets all four seasons.

Pam McNally: You’re not that far. You’re not that far from New York.

Rob Stott: No, not at all. Yeah. So I know what those four seasons can be like. And yeah, it’s, again, another example of how the pandemic pressed fast-forward on a trend that was already happening, people wanting to be outdoors and not gathered in those small spaces indoors, socially distanced, and just get that fresh open air. And it just was like, “All right. Well, let’s take these kitchens outdoor, and see what we can do there.” So no, that’s awesome. And I think speaks to we’re seeing a big push that way, too, with outdoor. More people being interested in the idea of extending their living spaces outdoors. We’ve spent so much time cooped up in our homes. You want to get out, even if it’s just out back for a little bit. You want to have a comfortable space to entertain and just exist outside.

Pam McNally: And also driving home sales-

Rob Stott: Yeah, absolutely.

Pam McNally: … Because people that were in a home that they never were in, didn’t spend time in, had a small yard now want a larger yard, a pool, which by the way, pools were becoming less of a thing. Now they’re becoming more of a thing, outdoor space. So a lot of that driving to upgrade homes, to move.

Rob Stott: Yeah, it’s crazy. So lots to look forward to. And of course, more market reports that we’ll dive into in the future as you guys continue to publish. So, Pam, I appreciate the time. This was an awesome conversation, and hopefully catch up again soon. Maybe in person before we know it.

Pam McNally: I would love that. Thank you so much. You’ve been amazing. And I’ve had an incredible time. Thank you.